I have Hemochromatosis. I was diagnosed with it nine years ago. This is interesting! That’s an understatement. I’ll be sharing this with a couple of large groups I’m in with people like me
I looked at foods rich in manganese. Many of these foods are ones I crave and make a point of eating(obviously not now)but might there be a reason for that craving?
Do we want to keep the manganase daily levels taken from food at 2mg per day even though we don't have the hemochromatosis mutations ? I am a regular drinker of Hibiscus tea which seems to be beneficial for someone that has a slow NO3 gene, but Hibiscus seems to be loaded with manganase with 1mg per cup of tea. I do not have any of the hemochromatis mutations.
Thanks Chris! I have a few people in my family who genetically have the predispositions for iron overload, and this was certainly very interesting information which I shared with them.
So are we really in effect just talking about a silica deficiency in the diet?
And silica always seems to be best absorbed from natural, high-content silica-rich mineral waters. Something our modern world has lost as we no longer drink from fresh mountain streams and natural springs.
I think less is known about silica's role in iron and Mn regulation, it surely affects aluminium levels, and hmm okay I can see copper..
All plant cell walls contain silica. They absorb it from ground once the crystals are 1-3 nanometer in size, no bigger (bigger and unusually shaped crystals from synthetic silica can be toxic to liver etc.).
Silica important in removing excess aluminium. People with Alzheimer are known to have higher Al levels, and low whole plants in their diets.
I guess it can have some indirect effect on iron and Mn, via copper levels.
If we have our whole genome sequenced with Sequencing.com, do you have any recommended calculators/apps we can use? I remember you referencing one from a Masterpass member in another article - is it possible to get access to that? Of course happy to pay. In the meantime, I've just been use Genome Explorer and inputting the genes. I have 4 SLC40A1 variants and heterozygous for HFE H63D/rs1799945. The 4:1 iron to manganese ratio is super helpful, but sounds like I should also be maybe having a bit lower iron'/manganese than the RDA due to these mutations? Do iron inhibitors (calcium, curcumin, quercitin) also inhibit manganese absorption?
My brother and I both have hemochromatosis. Our mom is 84 and just had her iron checked it is high. She has just started the tremors in her legs and can’t walk. Is there any hope to remove the toxins and have the tremors dissipate?
Those seeking to minimise manganese should also minimise liver consumption considering that the liver is where managanese is stored. Do you agree, Chris?
Four ounces of liver only has 0.4 mg manganese. If you're trying to do a radical manganese-depletion diet to deal with acute toxicity, liver should probably be limited. But for one or two servings a week, it is not adding that much manganese and it has a very strong iron-to-manganese ratio, and it is an incredible source of other nutrients, so it's the last thing I'd cut when trying to restrict manganese if just trying to eat a relatively low-manganese diet.
It surprises me that there's so little managanese in liver even though the liver stores it. Good point with the iron-to-manganese ratio and the other nutrients.
I have H63D with high iron saturation, and normal ferritin and iron. Borderline low to normal rbc. Doctors essentially don’t see anything. Should I be concerned? Btw, on low carb diet with plenty of meat.
Chris, iron overload is such an interest to me as mine comes from iron injections when I was 50 (30 years ago). I have the brown spots all over my hands. I’m too old to donate blood anyway so is there a solution? Presumably I don’t have corresponding excess manganese. Pretty healthy on the whole.
Germany: to protect the receiver in cases like homosexual men ( changed this now) - to protect the donor in cases like children and pregnant women ( still in place)
Thank you for this in depth article!! My 77 year old mother was just diagnosed with hemochromatosis and seems to have some artery blockages that she will have angioplasty for next week. Her cholesterol is high and she is having occasional chest pain along with aches and fatigue. She is convinced her heart issue is caused by the high iron, but the cardiologist won't discuss of course - not his lane so to speak. Her primary won't do anything until the cardiologist does his work. So she is told to relax, wait for the procedure and has nitro to take if she needs it. So maddening that so little connecting of dots seem to be done anymore!
I'm heterozygous for the less severe hemochromatosis gene and my iron saturation was 50% when I tested last spring. I just checked and my multivitamin from Pure Encapsulations has 2 mg of manganese - is that likely too much to supplement for a multi as a a carrier? I eat nuts and coconut pretty regularly on my gluten free diet, which I'll be reducing my consumption of both after your latest articles!
Looking at the limit from food you suggest, sounds like I shouldn't take a multi with 2mg manganese then as a HFE carrier. I had been reducing dietary iron since I discovered my 50%saturation last spring too.
I imagine it's better to have the iron and Mn balanced within a food, but do you think that keeping it balanced on a daily basis is good enough? Or maybe mixing high iron foods with high Mn foods within a meal ( ham on rye for example) ? Thanks for this article , I really appreciate the quantitative analysis, especially ratio metrics. I really believe all the rdas should be expressed as ratios... because it all comes down to stoichiometry eventually doesn't it
From what I understand, iron has little to no elimination pathways which leads to buildup in the body. Is the same true for manganese? Is there any knowledge on the elimination pathways of manganese?
Thanks, that was a very useful paper. The RCT I cited in the coconut article showed manganese 15 mg/d increased urinary manganese, but I wasn't aware of the tracer studies. Seems all the tracers are in animals from this paper? Looks like you are probably right, though, the balance of evidence supports urine as minor and feces as major.
As far as I know, yes, excess iron is much harder to get rid of compared to excess manganese.
I'd never add too much heme-iron (as the transporters of these in the intestine are badly controlled by our body, in cases when downregulation is necessary - non-heme iron can be regulated much more easily).
I do not believe there is any evidence for this, I know there is some evidence against it, and there is no basis for a firm opinion when we don't even know for certainty the heme iron transporters so can't possibly understand with any certainty their regulation.
My iron saturation as calculated by Quest has been a bit high the last year - 50% and now 52%, and functionhealth flagged this as a concern. My Dr. said not to worry - it's just a calculation - and my ferritin and iron levels look fine. I have genetic markers - I'm a carrier for hemochromatosis, but Dr. says that shouldn't matter since I'm just a carrier. I'm in perimenopause. In between the 50% calc and the 52% calc, I had a couple months of regular menstrual cycles, and saturation went down to 21, then back up. I think I need to donate blood. And no more hibiscus tea???
I have Hemochromatosis. I was diagnosed with it nine years ago. This is interesting! That’s an understatement. I’ll be sharing this with a couple of large groups I’m in with people like me
Thanks for sharing!
I looked at foods rich in manganese. Many of these foods are ones I crave and make a point of eating(obviously not now)but might there be a reason for that craving?
Most of them are rich in many other things. Of course it is possible that you aren’t getting enough manganese usually.
I am glad to read this article. More people should know.
Do we want to keep the manganase daily levels taken from food at 2mg per day even though we don't have the hemochromatosis mutations ? I am a regular drinker of Hibiscus tea which seems to be beneficial for someone that has a slow NO3 gene, but Hibiscus seems to be loaded with manganase with 1mg per cup of tea. I do not have any of the hemochromatis mutations.
No, if you don’t have disruptions in this pathway then you shouldn’t need to worry about iron or manganese because the body regulates absorption.
Thanks Chris! I have a few people in my family who genetically have the predispositions for iron overload, and this was certainly very interesting information which I shared with them.
Egcg chelates iron AND manganese and it gets through the bbb!!
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0304389425005709
Wondering whether this is all just creating complexity by looking at secondary issues.
Silica has regulatory effects and protects against toxicity of metals such as iron & manganese.
Silica also enhances the positive effects of copper in the body, which is the key cofactor and regulator of iron in the body.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/095528639090086Z
So are we really in effect just talking about a silica deficiency in the diet?
And silica always seems to be best absorbed from natural, high-content silica-rich mineral waters. Something our modern world has lost as we no longer drink from fresh mountain streams and natural springs.
I think less is known about silica's role in iron and Mn regulation, it surely affects aluminium levels, and hmm okay I can see copper..
All plant cell walls contain silica. They absorb it from ground once the crystals are 1-3 nanometer in size, no bigger (bigger and unusually shaped crystals from synthetic silica can be toxic to liver etc.).
Silica important in removing excess aluminium. People with Alzheimer are known to have higher Al levels, and low whole plants in their diets.
I guess it can have some indirect effect on iron and Mn, via copper levels.
If we have our whole genome sequenced with Sequencing.com, do you have any recommended calculators/apps we can use? I remember you referencing one from a Masterpass member in another article - is it possible to get access to that? Of course happy to pay. In the meantime, I've just been use Genome Explorer and inputting the genes. I have 4 SLC40A1 variants and heterozygous for HFE H63D/rs1799945. The 4:1 iron to manganese ratio is super helpful, but sounds like I should also be maybe having a bit lower iron'/manganese than the RDA due to these mutations? Do iron inhibitors (calcium, curcumin, quercitin) also inhibit manganese absorption?
I think the best quantitative approach is to run the cheat sheet iron status testing and assume it applies proportionally to manganese.
Any calculator you get that feeds your raw data file into is probably limited to HFE.
My brother and I both have hemochromatosis. Our mom is 84 and just had her iron checked it is high. She has just started the tremors in her legs and can’t walk. Is there any hope to remove the toxins and have the tremors dissipate?
I'll be releasing some protocols this week.
Those seeking to minimise manganese should also minimise liver consumption considering that the liver is where managanese is stored. Do you agree, Chris?
Four ounces of liver only has 0.4 mg manganese. If you're trying to do a radical manganese-depletion diet to deal with acute toxicity, liver should probably be limited. But for one or two servings a week, it is not adding that much manganese and it has a very strong iron-to-manganese ratio, and it is an incredible source of other nutrients, so it's the last thing I'd cut when trying to restrict manganese if just trying to eat a relatively low-manganese diet.
It surprises me that there's so little managanese in liver even though the liver stores it. Good point with the iron-to-manganese ratio and the other nutrients.
I have H63D with high iron saturation, and normal ferritin and iron. Borderline low to normal rbc. Doctors essentially don’t see anything. Should I be concerned? Btw, on low carb diet with plenty of meat.
Yes, the high iron saturation indicates hidden manganese overload.
Chris, iron overload is such an interest to me as mine comes from iron injections when I was 50 (30 years ago). I have the brown spots all over my hands. I’m too old to donate blood anyway so is there a solution? Presumably I don’t have corresponding excess manganese. Pretty healthy on the whole.
Why are you too old to donate blood?
Blood removal is best even if it isn’t donated.
Without the genetics and with excess iron input you are more likely to be deficient in manganese than overloaded.
Some organizations and countries have an age limit on blood donation, they recently abolished it in Germany.
Interesting. Is that to protect the donor or receiver?
Germany: to protect the receiver in cases like homosexual men ( changed this now) - to protect the donor in cases like children and pregnant women ( still in place)
Thank you for this in depth article!! My 77 year old mother was just diagnosed with hemochromatosis and seems to have some artery blockages that she will have angioplasty for next week. Her cholesterol is high and she is having occasional chest pain along with aches and fatigue. She is convinced her heart issue is caused by the high iron, but the cardiologist won't discuss of course - not his lane so to speak. Her primary won't do anything until the cardiologist does his work. So she is told to relax, wait for the procedure and has nitro to take if she needs it. So maddening that so little connecting of dots seem to be done anymore!
I'm heterozygous for the less severe hemochromatosis gene and my iron saturation was 50% when I tested last spring. I just checked and my multivitamin from Pure Encapsulations has 2 mg of manganese - is that likely too much to supplement for a multi as a a carrier? I eat nuts and coconut pretty regularly on my gluten free diet, which I'll be reducing my consumption of both after your latest articles!
I think the high iron saturation indicates the concern is real.
So, see the default guidelines I gave for total manganese intake.
Looking at the limit from food you suggest, sounds like I shouldn't take a multi with 2mg manganese then as a HFE carrier. I had been reducing dietary iron since I discovered my 50%saturation last spring too.
I imagine it's better to have the iron and Mn balanced within a food, but do you think that keeping it balanced on a daily basis is good enough? Or maybe mixing high iron foods with high Mn foods within a meal ( ham on rye for example) ? Thanks for this article , I really appreciate the quantitative analysis, especially ratio metrics. I really believe all the rdas should be expressed as ratios... because it all comes down to stoichiometry eventually doesn't it
Cumulative iron status is overwhelmingly more important than the iron content of each meal.
From what I understand, iron has little to no elimination pathways which leads to buildup in the body. Is the same true for manganese? Is there any knowledge on the elimination pathways of manganese?
Urine.
References here and elsewhere https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpgi.00299.2021 suggest urine excretion is minimal. It's mostly feces (bile). What's your source for excretion through urine?
Thanks, that was a very useful paper. The RCT I cited in the coconut article showed manganese 15 mg/d increased urinary manganese, but I wasn't aware of the tracer studies. Seems all the tracers are in animals from this paper? Looks like you are probably right, though, the balance of evidence supports urine as minor and feces as major.
As far as I know, yes, excess iron is much harder to get rid of compared to excess manganese.
I'd never add too much heme-iron (as the transporters of these in the intestine are badly controlled by our body, in cases when downregulation is necessary - non-heme iron can be regulated much more easily).
I do not believe there is any evidence for this, I know there is some evidence against it, and there is no basis for a firm opinion when we don't even know for certainty the heme iron transporters so can't possibly understand with any certainty their regulation.
Ahh, I probably remember it wrong,
I remember reading about it from a random old paper, but now reading it again here it says it's upregulation problem instead of downregulation.
"Paradoxically, the absorption of heme iron
cannot upregulate to the same extent as non-heme
iron during iron deficiency [14,15,21-25] ." -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2725368/pdf/WJG-14-4101.pdf
My iron saturation as calculated by Quest has been a bit high the last year - 50% and now 52%, and functionhealth flagged this as a concern. My Dr. said not to worry - it's just a calculation - and my ferritin and iron levels look fine. I have genetic markers - I'm a carrier for hemochromatosis, but Dr. says that shouldn't matter since I'm just a carrier. I'm in perimenopause. In between the 50% calc and the 52% calc, I had a couple months of regular menstrual cycles, and saturation went down to 21, then back up. I think I need to donate blood. And no more hibiscus tea???
You don't need your doctor's permission to donate blood. Your iron is too high.
What's "iron overload"? High in our blood or high stored in our tissues with high ferritin?
It's too much iron in the body.
Where? Measured in blood, like RBC? Ferritin? Hair?