Wow. This is impressive, Chris. I'm not sure what to make of this, however... and I guess you'll have to figure it out for us. As a 70 year old rock climber who has FINALLY agreed to hit that 100 gm daily target, I also wonder the role exercise plays in this equation. I would not eat this amount of protein were I still sedentary. But, busting out 6-8 hours of extreme exertion on rock, I think it changes how my body uses nutrients, including protein. But I'm not sure... :-)
Very thorough, thank you Chris. As usual, studies are too narrowly-scoped. Context might be everything...take the same diet PLUS fiber vs same diet with insufficient fiber for example. It's frustrating that the high amount of carbs is ignored. Agreed, studies need to be conducted with fed/fasted cycles.
Alternate proposition: High protein diet encourages mTOR activation, i.e., growth, which is generally considered a good thing. mTOR deactivation is essential to optimal autophagy and is concomitant with fasting. Ergo, a high protein diet that includes a fasting window of 16+ hours should provide balance, while being far more natural than the typical American three meals plus snacks. Humans didn't eat breakfast 5000 years ago, and only the wealthy ate breakfast 500 years ago.
Ignatowski? Really? Was he the grandfather of Christopher Lloyd (Jim Ignatowski on Taxi?
This study was in mice. The one in rabbits was replicated in a dozen other species, and the several where it couldn't be replicated were explained mechanistically as to why they were exceptions. Humans are somewhat in between (more vulnerable than the dog, for example, but not nearly as impacted as the rabbit).
Chris, rabbits are strictly herbivorous animals. Under no circumstances and in no situation would I feed a deer or a rabbit with meat and fats, because it will surely make them sick. Just as I would not feed a carnivore such as a tiger or a lion with grass, because it will make them sick as well. What Anichkov and Ignatowski demonstrated with rabbits was that if you feed a herbivorous animal with food specific to a carnivore, those animals will get sick (probably from a myriad of diseases, including atherosclerotic plaque). We should not ignore the extraordinary stress component for a herbivore when it is forced to eat meat. And yet, those studies are the basis of the lipid theory of cardiovascular diseases. Studies were also conducted on dogs and cats, and of course, these animals are carnivores (the cat is a strict carnivore, the dog is slightly omnivorous, but still essentially a carnivore) and they could not replicate the results with atherogenesis, simply because they fed animals their physiologically natural food. The studies mentioned on rabbits have laid the foundation for the lipid hypothesis of cardiovascular diseases, from which the cholesterol theory in atherogenesis later developed, followed by Ancel Keys' recommendations, fat phobia, and high carbs, things that persist even today. And it all started from some rabbits fed with meat and fats, which is why references to such studies should not be made, I think...
Maybe that is only as an extreme survival way, for a few days, not something they will choose freely, if they have available food. Carnivores and herbivores have different physiology...
Fascinating. Can you point me to a concise reference for this information? I tried to explain how the Ansel keys' research conclusions were invalidated from lack of data inclusion, just the other day, but didn't have a good source to give them. I did not know of the rabbit / inappropriate diet, contribution to the faulty, lipid hypothesis.
Appreciate your perspective on this. I have read a lot about cyclodextrin, but have had a hard time finding it....until now. What do you think about cyclodextrin's ability to shrink plaque size?
thank goodness for you knowing all this... it is really an ever-escalating arms race of knowing it seems to me. and by the way who funded that study and do they have any links ( hidden or otherwise) to ngos and to the war on meat?! a carnivore
It struck me that even the “real food” in the study wasn’t real food. It seemed to me as if the researchers set the high protein diet up to fail. Thanks for taking the time to truly analyse what was done. Another crap study.
I will go further about the narrowly-scooped tendency... Why so much research try to divert us from meat...?
Because we are meat eaters with the population of herbivores without a predator!
Grains have been used to keep slaves and a poor class but now, it's needed that people choose plant-based diets by themselves because we can't accept the fate of herbivores.
We even fight the regulating microbes, but how long will we be efficient?
the "real food" fake control for the paper doesn't even use just real food. "protein isolates" are chemically derived products which likely have different effects on the body than the complete foods they were extracted from.
Wow. This is impressive, Chris. I'm not sure what to make of this, however... and I guess you'll have to figure it out for us. As a 70 year old rock climber who has FINALLY agreed to hit that 100 gm daily target, I also wonder the role exercise plays in this equation. I would not eat this amount of protein were I still sedentary. But, busting out 6-8 hours of extreme exertion on rock, I think it changes how my body uses nutrients, including protein. But I'm not sure... :-)
Lori, Just a reply to say, you sound awesome! 💪🏼
Very thorough, thank you Chris. As usual, studies are too narrowly-scoped. Context might be everything...take the same diet PLUS fiber vs same diet with insufficient fiber for example. It's frustrating that the high amount of carbs is ignored. Agreed, studies need to be conducted with fed/fasted cycles.
So timely, Chris! I had noticed this article and I wondered when you would post a rebuttal. Thanks so much for being on top of this!
I'll add a potential mechanism here whereby excess leucine could be harmful ...seems to reduce nitric oxide synthesis in endothelial cells
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/15353702231199078
Nitric oxide (and arginine and citrulline) seem to have some benefits in regards to reducing atherosclerotic plaques
Alternate proposition: High protein diet encourages mTOR activation, i.e., growth, which is generally considered a good thing. mTOR deactivation is essential to optimal autophagy and is concomitant with fasting. Ergo, a high protein diet that includes a fasting window of 16+ hours should provide balance, while being far more natural than the typical American three meals plus snacks. Humans didn't eat breakfast 5000 years ago, and only the wealthy ate breakfast 500 years ago.
Ignatowski? Really? Was he the grandfather of Christopher Lloyd (Jim Ignatowski on Taxi?
Just a thought… Rabbits never eat meat nor eggs nor milk… just grass… so why is this study even worth comparing to mammals that do eat these things?
This study was in mice. The one in rabbits was replicated in a dozen other species, and the several where it couldn't be replicated were explained mechanistically as to why they were exceptions. Humans are somewhat in between (more vulnerable than the dog, for example, but not nearly as impacted as the rabbit).
Chris, rabbits are strictly herbivorous animals. Under no circumstances and in no situation would I feed a deer or a rabbit with meat and fats, because it will surely make them sick. Just as I would not feed a carnivore such as a tiger or a lion with grass, because it will make them sick as well. What Anichkov and Ignatowski demonstrated with rabbits was that if you feed a herbivorous animal with food specific to a carnivore, those animals will get sick (probably from a myriad of diseases, including atherosclerotic plaque). We should not ignore the extraordinary stress component for a herbivore when it is forced to eat meat. And yet, those studies are the basis of the lipid theory of cardiovascular diseases. Studies were also conducted on dogs and cats, and of course, these animals are carnivores (the cat is a strict carnivore, the dog is slightly omnivorous, but still essentially a carnivore) and they could not replicate the results with atherogenesis, simply because they fed animals their physiologically natural food. The studies mentioned on rabbits have laid the foundation for the lipid hypothesis of cardiovascular diseases, from which the cholesterol theory in atherogenesis later developed, followed by Ancel Keys' recommendations, fat phobia, and high carbs, things that persist even today. And it all started from some rabbits fed with meat and fats, which is why references to such studies should not be made, I think...
when hungry enough, deer eat carrion.
when stressed, rabbits eat their young.
many herbivorous species are physically capable of carnivorous digestion, it's just not the norm
Maybe that is only as an extreme survival way, for a few days, not something they will choose freely, if they have available food. Carnivores and herbivores have different physiology...
they do have different physiology.
but they won't die from eating other animals, either. I'll bet if they got sick from it they'd not do it either.
Fascinating. Can you point me to a concise reference for this information? I tried to explain how the Ansel keys' research conclusions were invalidated from lack of data inclusion, just the other day, but didn't have a good source to give them. I did not know of the rabbit / inappropriate diet, contribution to the faulty, lipid hypothesis.
Hi! Here is a good start...
https://www.escardio.org/Journals/E-Journal-of-Cardiology-Practice/Volume-19/history-in-medicine-the-story-of-cholesterol-lipids-and-cardiology
Thank you! Fascinating!
Appreciate your perspective on this. I have read a lot about cyclodextrin, but have had a hard time finding it....until now. What do you think about cyclodextrin's ability to shrink plaque size?
Thanks! https://www.ipharmerci.com/remchol.html
Not familiar with it, but interesting.
thank goodness for you knowing all this... it is really an ever-escalating arms race of knowing it seems to me. and by the way who funded that study and do they have any links ( hidden or otherwise) to ngos and to the war on meat?! a carnivore
It struck me that even the “real food” in the study wasn’t real food. It seemed to me as if the researchers set the high protein diet up to fail. Thanks for taking the time to truly analyse what was done. Another crap study.
I will go further about the narrowly-scooped tendency... Why so much research try to divert us from meat...?
Because we are meat eaters with the population of herbivores without a predator!
Grains have been used to keep slaves and a poor class but now, it's needed that people choose plant-based diets by themselves because we can't accept the fate of herbivores.
We even fight the regulating microbes, but how long will we be efficient?
the "real food" fake control for the paper doesn't even use just real food. "protein isolates" are chemically derived products which likely have different effects on the body than the complete foods they were extracted from.