Chris this is another amazing article. My FM practitioner and I were recently discussing K-2 and wondering about supplementation (I already supplement with Ubiquinol). I really appreciate how you provide a “cliff notes” summary for those of us who are not microbiologists :). And I appreciate that you provide us with “ideal” and “middle of the road” solutions. What a fantastic resource for our health journey. Thank you!
Dear Chris, thanks for the article! I was wondering if you have an opinion on the safety of MK-4 in supplements? Supposedly, MK-4 in supplements is mainly chemically synthesized and contains naturally non-occuring enantiomers. Paul Jaminet has mentioned this recently, however I have not been able to find any data regarding this (not to mention the potential effects in humans). It would appear to me, that it would be prudent in this case to try to avoid MK-4 in supplements and only use MK-4 from foods and MK-7 in supplements, since MK-7 in supplements is usually isolated from foods.
Thanks Chris! With the master pass discount you can get the Australian ’Smidge’ emu oil capsules from full script. Would you generally recommend higher dosage? They suggest 3 softgels for 1500mg emu oil which has 6.4 mcg K2
It was just a comment on his supplement page, which made a lot of sense to me however, since MK-4 has stereogenic centers and unnatural enantiomers are a frequent occurrence/problem in chemically synthesized molecules (e.g. citalopram).
There may be a better solution...green algae (spirulina /chlorella) and red algae (Astaxanthin) can enter the mitochondria...whereas most vitamins cannot.
Astaxanthin has higher amounts of all the following CoQ10 .. vitamin C.. Vitamin E already packed inside it...and it is a super antioxidant.. that acts as both a donator and free radical scavenger.
Chlorella already has magnesium..and is readily absorbed by the mitochondria... which boosts atp.. the master switch to potassium and sodium ions.
Spirulina and Chlorella are plant food.. and accepted by the body as K1... which can convert to K2.
Here’s another link to a podcast …the spirulina/chlorella connection.. used in conjunction with urolithin A (pomegranate extract or juice.. and berries and nuts)you drive mitophagy which then removes dead and defunct mitochondria…often as a result of viral or vaccine issues.. lots of misfolded proteins mean loss of energy hence long covid…you can fix mitochondrial issues… through mitophagy.. as a long term ME sufferer.. I can absolutely state this worked for me.
What is often an overlooked part of this picture is poor gut microbiome.. fix your gut first .. then the ability to convert K1 to K2 is often restored..
The point I am trying to make is that mitochondria has two membranes... and flooding the body with vitamins does not always penetrate the inner membrane due to poor electron transport... vitamin c can if it’s liposomal....think it’s more likely using any ionophore..which is why chlorella does work.. it has zinc and iodine..
It would be helpful to read more about your ideas in a longer format than a comment thread, do you have a blog? Because in a comment thread I’m just focusing on the statements that seem strange or unsupported.
For example: is liposomal Vit C better able to enter mitochondria?? I think most liposomes would interact with cell membranes before ever reaching mitochondria.
Australian Spirulina is advertised to be grown in a pollution-free environment and crystal clear mineral water; it is more expensive as fillers are not used in the compaction process. Chlorella is grown in tropical Queensland. I prefer these to Chinese products re-packaged in Canada and the US.
Remember that mitochondria started out life as Cyanobacteria… and feeds on spirulina or chlorella… that’s why it recognises this nutrient … anyone who ingests either.. it goes straight into feeding mitochondria as well as detoxifying bad stuff… it’s a no brained.
Thanks for this interesting post. I'm often confused by negative/positive characteristics. You wrote "MK-4 in a lipid monolayer is negative 63 millivolts." but your notation "MK-4 (+63 mV)" is positive or maybe a tiny typo? Also, does the charge impact preferred position relative to the monolayer?
I have multiple chronic conditions. What gives me a little energy is supplements with NADH. What gives me more fatigue is NAD+, NMN, Q10. Maby 10 years ago I got some energy from vitamin C, now I tend to feel my body got less O2 after taking antioxidants. I felt better when trying CDS (chlorine dioxide), and ASEA. So I feel better on pro oxidants, and worse with antioxidants. Can anyone tell me something about where my problems lies / where the bottle neck is? I also feel dramatically worse with supplements of Vitamin D, A and K.. . I have a very low D3 and a very high 1,25 (OH)2-vit D.
My thoughts since no one seems to have responded...
You are taking anti oxidants with an oxidiser... this will be unhelpful.Your calcium levels may be too high .. get your thyroid levels checked.
Low D high 1:25.. points to an issue with liver or kidney.. which are the two organs that convert D into active form...so K2 may help reduce calcification... sodium citrate may be of help here.
Your high intake of fat solubles may point to a metabolic disorder if you feel fatigue... could be producing too much too much ROS.I had a similar reaction when combining PPQ with CoQ10... switched to astaxanthin energy is really good.
Vitamin C reduces ROS especially liposomal... oxidisers produce more ROS .. so your issue seems to be related.
Here is probably a better way to reset your internal combustion...and balance the redox.
Use NAC to increase liver detoxing.. first thing in the morning... this provides building blocks of glutathione...along with astaxanthin(this has higher amounts per mg of Vitamin C ..CoQ10. .. and Vitamin E... it is also very high in beta carotene.)so no fish oil or vitamin A at the same time of day.. if you still use chlorine dioxide use after a six hour gap from antioxidants... then after 6 hrs of CL02..use a Tocotrienols (delta gamma has a shorter tail the tocopherols ) in the evening...
Avoid sugar lower high carb intake.. steer clear of omega 6 and reduce inflammatory foods.
The astaxanthin will certainly make your energy levels rise naturally .. magnesium will compliment the effect .. I alternate each day between taurate and threonate.
...reduce your crp (inflammatory markers)and things should start to improve energy wise...
Just to be clear… mitochondria started out life as algae…. Chlorella… and as it evolved became part of a protective cell.. so each human cell has a lipid membrane and the mitochondria has its own membrane … it makes complete sense that the only food it is used to use in its earliest form was algae.. green or red.. all this talk about “other” nutrients effectiveness is fine but remember if you want good results consider chlorella or Astaxanthin… the mitochondria recognise what it is and uses it more effectively than “discovered” vitamins and minerals..
I experience paresthesia on MK4, but not MK7. I emailed you in 2016 about this and your comment at the time I would summarize as 1) that it was not clear why these molecules would be chiral, so nonbiological enantiomers was not a likely reason, 2) the half-life in blood (MK7's being much longer) wasn't something to base a decision on, and 3) it was at least possible that the manufacturing process produced other contaminants I was sensitive to. It's been 8 years - any further thoughts?
Chris this is another amazing article. My FM practitioner and I were recently discussing K-2 and wondering about supplementation (I already supplement with Ubiquinol). I really appreciate how you provide a “cliff notes” summary for those of us who are not microbiologists :). And I appreciate that you provide us with “ideal” and “middle of the road” solutions. What a fantastic resource for our health journey. Thank you!
Gundry uses MK4 & MK 7 in his vitamin K supplement.
Dear Chris, thanks for the article! I was wondering if you have an opinion on the safety of MK-4 in supplements? Supposedly, MK-4 in supplements is mainly chemically synthesized and contains naturally non-occuring enantiomers. Paul Jaminet has mentioned this recently, however I have not been able to find any data regarding this (not to mention the potential effects in humans). It would appear to me, that it would be prudent in this case to try to avoid MK-4 in supplements and only use MK-4 from foods and MK-7 in supplements, since MK-7 in supplements is usually isolated from foods.
It looks like emu oil is the most dense oil in MK-4 but doses are low if you use capsules. Can you link to Jaminet’s article?
Thanks Chris! With the master pass discount you can get the Australian ’Smidge’ emu oil capsules from full script. Would you generally recommend higher dosage? They suggest 3 softgels for 1500mg emu oil which has 6.4 mcg K2
It was just a comment on his supplement page, which made a lot of sense to me however, since MK-4 has stereogenic centers and unnatural enantiomers are a frequent occurrence/problem in chemically synthesized molecules (e.g. citalopram).
https://perfecthealthdiet.com/recommended-supplements/comment-page-43/#comment-1942420
I purchase mine from Walkabout, fwiw. Here's what they told me: There is apr. 12 mcg/g of naturally occurring vitamin K2 MK-4 in the liquid supplement. So in 2 grams or 1/2 tsp. there will be apr. 24 mcg/g. Our emu oil also contains naturally occurring D3 and a unique fatty acid profile. https://walkabouthealthproducts.com/product/walkabout-australian-emu-oil-4-fl-oz-118-ml-liquid-supplement-narrow-top/
There may be a better solution...green algae (spirulina /chlorella) and red algae (Astaxanthin) can enter the mitochondria...whereas most vitamins cannot.
Astaxanthin has higher amounts of all the following CoQ10 .. vitamin C.. Vitamin E already packed inside it...and it is a super antioxidant.. that acts as both a donator and free radical scavenger.
Chlorella already has magnesium..and is readily absorbed by the mitochondria... which boosts atp.. the master switch to potassium and sodium ions.
Spirulina and Chlorella are plant food.. and accepted by the body as K1... which can convert to K2.
1) where did you get the idea most vitamins cannot enter the mitochondria?
2) the reason to consume MK4 is you might not make the conversion optimally
Here’s another link to a podcast …the spirulina/chlorella connection.. used in conjunction with urolithin A (pomegranate extract or juice.. and berries and nuts)you drive mitophagy which then removes dead and defunct mitochondria…often as a result of viral or vaccine issues.. lots of misfolded proteins mean loss of energy hence long covid…you can fix mitochondrial issues… through mitophagy.. as a long term ME sufferer.. I can absolutely state this worked for me.
What is often an overlooked part of this picture is poor gut microbiome.. fix your gut first .. then the ability to convert K1 to K2 is often restored..
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13m33ufG6uTbcIxYmE72nuu4avTJrYX9J/view?usp=drivesdk
The point I am trying to make is that mitochondria has two membranes... and flooding the body with vitamins does not always penetrate the inner membrane due to poor electron transport... vitamin c can if it’s liposomal....think it’s more likely using any ionophore..which is why chlorella does work.. it has zinc and iodine..
My own copy of an older important study...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/128RaF-SOIniTFWZniuuOIF5qJAzfllrw/view?usp=drivesdk
It would be helpful to read more about your ideas in a longer format than a comment thread, do you have a blog? Because in a comment thread I’m just focusing on the statements that seem strange or unsupported.
For example: is liposomal Vit C better able to enter mitochondria?? I think most liposomes would interact with cell membranes before ever reaching mitochondria.
Australian Spirulina is advertised to be grown in a pollution-free environment and crystal clear mineral water; it is more expensive as fillers are not used in the compaction process. Chlorella is grown in tropical Queensland. I prefer these to Chinese products re-packaged in Canada and the US.
The trick is finding a spirulina source without heavy metals that’s actually affordable.
That’s why using the combination of spirulina and chlorella together makes sense.. chlorella “chelates” any heavy metal in the body .
I use Pinksun Organic Spirulina/Chlorella combined tested against heavy metals.
Thanks for the recommendation!
Remember that mitochondria started out life as Cyanobacteria… and feeds on spirulina or chlorella… that’s why it recognises this nutrient … anyone who ingests either.. it goes straight into feeding mitochondria as well as detoxifying bad stuff… it’s a no brained.
Wow, awesome thanks for this high impact insight.
Great post! My favorite electron acceptor! Lol
As always great post, thanks for the info!
Thanks for this interesting post. I'm often confused by negative/positive characteristics. You wrote "MK-4 in a lipid monolayer is negative 63 millivolts." but your notation "MK-4 (+63 mV)" is positive or maybe a tiny typo? Also, does the charge impact preferred position relative to the monolayer?
That was a mistake, thank you, I fixed it. Redox potentials are not charges.
This is a great read! However, doesn't this paper dispel the notion that K2 can act as the release valve? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6484000/
~ Dan from London (but currently in Cape Town).
I have multiple chronic conditions. What gives me a little energy is supplements with NADH. What gives me more fatigue is NAD+, NMN, Q10. Maby 10 years ago I got some energy from vitamin C, now I tend to feel my body got less O2 after taking antioxidants. I felt better when trying CDS (chlorine dioxide), and ASEA. So I feel better on pro oxidants, and worse with antioxidants. Can anyone tell me something about where my problems lies / where the bottle neck is? I also feel dramatically worse with supplements of Vitamin D, A and K.. . I have a very low D3 and a very high 1,25 (OH)2-vit D.
My thoughts since no one seems to have responded...
You are taking anti oxidants with an oxidiser... this will be unhelpful.Your calcium levels may be too high .. get your thyroid levels checked.
Low D high 1:25.. points to an issue with liver or kidney.. which are the two organs that convert D into active form...so K2 may help reduce calcification... sodium citrate may be of help here.
Your high intake of fat solubles may point to a metabolic disorder if you feel fatigue... could be producing too much too much ROS.I had a similar reaction when combining PPQ with CoQ10... switched to astaxanthin energy is really good.
Vitamin C reduces ROS especially liposomal... oxidisers produce more ROS .. so your issue seems to be related.
Here is probably a better way to reset your internal combustion...and balance the redox.
Use NAC to increase liver detoxing.. first thing in the morning... this provides building blocks of glutathione...along with astaxanthin(this has higher amounts per mg of Vitamin C ..CoQ10. .. and Vitamin E... it is also very high in beta carotene.)so no fish oil or vitamin A at the same time of day.. if you still use chlorine dioxide use after a six hour gap from antioxidants... then after 6 hrs of CL02..use a Tocotrienols (delta gamma has a shorter tail the tocopherols ) in the evening...
Avoid sugar lower high carb intake.. steer clear of omega 6 and reduce inflammatory foods.
The astaxanthin will certainly make your energy levels rise naturally .. magnesium will compliment the effect .. I alternate each day between taurate and threonate.
...reduce your crp (inflammatory markers)and things should start to improve energy wise...
Just to be clear… mitochondria started out life as algae…. Chlorella… and as it evolved became part of a protective cell.. so each human cell has a lipid membrane and the mitochondria has its own membrane … it makes complete sense that the only food it is used to use in its earliest form was algae.. green or red.. all this talk about “other” nutrients effectiveness is fine but remember if you want good results consider chlorella or Astaxanthin… the mitochondria recognise what it is and uses it more effectively than “discovered” vitamins and minerals..
I experience paresthesia on MK4, but not MK7. I emailed you in 2016 about this and your comment at the time I would summarize as 1) that it was not clear why these molecules would be chiral, so nonbiological enantiomers was not a likely reason, 2) the half-life in blood (MK7's being much longer) wasn't something to base a decision on, and 3) it was at least possible that the manufacturing process produced other contaminants I was sensitive to. It's been 8 years - any further thoughts?
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the great article . . . .
I take Xtendlife Vitamin D3 + K2
The K2 is 90mcg of 4 and 90mcg of 7 . . .with 4000IU of D3
www.xtendlife.com
I take an MK4 supplement capsule that comes in 15,000mcg every few days. Is there any risk at that dosage? Thanks.
I’ve also studied ergothionine is important. I honestly thought your article was going to be about it!Thoughts?
I have used it and found it helpfull while fighting my misterious sickness a year ago
Hi, is the Ultimate Cheat Sheet and The Comprehensive Nutritional Screening the same info? Thanks
The comprehensive screening is an updated version of what’s in the Cheat Sheet on the comprehensive screening page.