High dose (15-30 grams/day) MSM per Dr Kathleen Janel’s protocol. Eliminated all my joint pain and SIBO symptoms. Highly recommended. https://gijanel.com
I had already been wondering if I have problems metabolizing sulfur, for many of the reasons mentioned in these articles. Would the ability to tolerate MSM mean that one is processing sulfur properly? On the other hand, if taking MSM improves joint pain - what does that indicate regarding one's metabolism? Since that much MSM is not natural, what imperfection is it compensating for? Like everyone else, just trying to understand what is happening.
Check out her site and book which is available on Amazon. Search for her interview with the SIBO doctor on Youtube and podcasts. She takes the same position as Dr Stephanie Seneff (also worth googling for her research and interviews) who believes that glyphosate impedes our ability to process sulfur. Many people become intolerant to sulfur because of leaky gut etc and then compound the problem by going on reduced sulfur diets. Sulfur deficiency leads to reduced healing because it makes up a significant portion of our body weight (7ish%?). All connective tissue including skin, joints, cartilage, digestive lining etc require sulfur in addition to the synthesis of glutathione. I don't want to write an article in the comments so suffice it to say that there is much more and CMJ can correct me where I'm being unclear or just plain wrong.
I have a long ways to go, but 2 things that have really helped me with muscle tension are working with my fascia. And realizing the tension started in my abdomen, and seems related to emotions esp. I hold my stress in my abdominal muscles. Tightness starts in my abdomen but when that can't hold any more, it radiates to other muscles.
Correct Toes have done a lot to get me into shape. It was rough as it required a paradigm change. If you’d told me before using Correct Toes that I’d be super active and sporty I would’ve been skeptical
A few very important facts about muscle tone (having studied it for 35 years).
1) The only reason a muscle fibre contracts is that it receives a message from a motor neuron.
2) Motor neurons have one output and 10000 pre-synaptic inputs.
3) Motor neurons fire at aproximately 50Hz at rest and 500Hz at full contraction. Outputs above or below normal levels cause tension or weakness respectively.
4) Many of those 10000 inputs do not come from the brain, they come from the muscle spindles of the agonist, synergist, antagonists, remote muscles and other proprioceptors to enable coordinated muscle response.
5) Muscle tone relies on sensory input, including the effects of the withdrawal reflex if it is stimulated (it's hard to impossible to walk normally with a pebble in your shoe).
6) Muscle tone isn't easy to measure and the causes of low or high tone are often hidden.
7) The myotatic reflex is a mechanism for maintaining proper muscle tone.
It's just important to point out that muscle tone is not necessarily a nutrition problem, although nutrition plays a part in all cell function, neurons also depend on appropriate sensory control.
I'm sorry I can't tell you what is causing your tight calves without examining you but most abnormal tone is usually caused by bad sensory input from foreign bodies which may be the metal neckchain you wear around your neck, which irritates the skin on the back of your neck, setting up a generalised withdrawal reflex and alterations of normal muscle tone.
You’re clearly very knowledgeable about this, but I think you’re ignoring a giant sphere of influence, which is that everyone’s muscle tone is multi-factorial for the exact reason you outlined — thousands of inputs — and while many of those are outside the brain many are inside the brain, and common sense can show you plenty of examples of people who are quite simply in a global sense more tense and less tense. Further, I just told you in this article that molybdenum created a global decline of excessive muscle tension, independent of any alignment or movement or postural issues.
Yes, control of muscle tone is complex and global muscle tone is likely nutritional/inflammatory, although some cases are spinal or nutritional. I look forward to experimenting with molybendum and catching up on your other suggestions. I'm a new masterpass member.
Yes, Id be interested to know what you thought about the article on b6 toxicity! I myself tried b5 supplementation to increase CoA to bolster remyelinization (if I understand that correctly) and it seems to have banished numbness in my big toe that's been there for 5 years. I've stopped the b5 now but the numbness isn't returning...at least so far
Cutting out grains, legumes and yeasts has helped our muscle tension. My husband also has muscle tension a lot, like yours, from his ankles to his neck and yes working on his ankles and calves helps a lot, but lower back pain/tightness correlates with fatigue the most. Boswellia supplement and frankincense oil help temporarily, along with peppermint oil. We also saw benefits from glycine, but it is less effective now. Alcohol helps with relaxation and energy. I really wish I could find a high dose molybdenum supplement here in Canada to try, will keep looking.
I found that the Canadian Designs for Health has a Zinc+ supplement that includes a decent amount of Molybdenum. I think it does help with muscle tension but I am hoping to do another test soon.
I'm going to try this. Currently dealing with histamine intolerance due to a candida infection. From what I read, candida depletes Molybdenum. The first indications that i have a histamine overload are foot cramps, followed by cramps in the calf and then cramps in the shin. Magnesium, I take 450 mg a day, may be helping but it doesn't prevent this from happening. 1-2 grams of vitamin C over the course of the day will help the most. Thanks for the post!
Are you hypermobile? My experience with people who feel like their muscles are very "tight" (which can actually mean several things) and who also feel like they want to/ should be able to crack joints easily is that they are usually hypermobile. That can include hypermobility when younger even if age has stiffened the body so it no longer appears to be overly flexible. If so - that might mean your discoveries with molybdenum could be useful for others with hypermobility as this constant feeling of tightness (or for many, chronic pain) is one of the really debilitating aspects of that body type.
Jenny, thanks for your post. Do you have any more information on the connection between 'tight' muscles or joints and hypermobility? I have had both these traits as long as I can remember. Sounds like you have experience in this arena - is there anything else you have found to be of help in this type of case?
Would it be suitable enough to supplement 10mg of biotin once a week since biotin is stored in the liver instead of a lower 1.5 mg dose everyday of the week ? I am heterozygous for the D444H defect in the biotinadase enzyme which reduces enzyme activity to 52% and find it difficult to know what dose of biotin would work best for me. My 3-HIA is low at 1.49 ug/mgCR and biotin is low normal at 1.49 ug/mgCR aswell (both fasting).
Did you find magnesium glycinate glycinate for the muscle tension? Are you sure muscle tension is the limiting factor as to whether or not your joints cavitate? There are a few other important factors such as passive ligamentous laxity. Also in case it's helpful to your reasoning, the relaxation in the surrounding muscles and increased mobility at a joint post cavitation is probably a neurological response more than a local tissue response.
Sorry my comment wasn't well organized. I wasn't linking neurotransmitters and passive ligamentous laxity. I was only saying there are a number of factors which determine whether or not a joint cavitates readily. Muscle tension is just one.
The following two comments were just (potentially thought provoking) trivia.
Excessively stiff ligaments and joint capsules can make a joint more difficult to cavitate, as can excessively lax ligaments and joint capsules. Usually because they are cavitating spontaneously with movement in the latter case - and it takes about 20-30 minutes for the joint to be able to audibly cavitate again. As I recall the leading hypothesis was that this is the time it takes for the gasses to (re)dissolve in the synovial fluid. There are real training effects with regular cavitation of joints.
i realized i have this exact problem with my right foot/leg. the next day after i eat high sulfur foods(h2s sibo) it feels like my right leg is jello or like i forgot how to walk in that leg. its very strange and embarrasing. its like i have to conciously control how i walk and i never attributed it to sulfite/sulfocystiene. i noticed that during these wierd episodes i felt nervous and was always clenching my jaw to the point i got a headache which i now think is the glutamate agonistic effects of sulfocystiene.
this would make sense because h2s is inevitably metabolized into sulfite and if molybdenum cofactor is low then the next step in the pathway is converting the sulfite to sulfocystiene or thiosulfate.
so what i get from this is that anything that increases sulfite will inevitably deplete molybdenum with insufficient intake and cause these strange symptoms.
I don’t think it’s depleting molybdenum it’s just that it’s raising sulfite and S-sulfocysteine if you don’t have enough. H2S is toxic itself in high amounts but I think the jaw clenching and nervousness indicates S-sulfocysteine
Timely article for me as I am looking to detox my chronic salicylate levels and most likely high sulphite levels with Moly Zyme. I am curious if you felt you needed to increase or supplement with copper with taking high dose molybdenum. And would that mean you would need to increase zinc then as well?
would inability to relax a muscle after exertion relate to muscle tension you are describing or is it a different kind of symptom? Like pulling your toes and foot getting sort of stuck in a cramp until I stretch it.
Any worries about the additional ingredients in Mo-Zyme? Not sure if it's the same product but the version sold here contains Shellac. Are additives in some supplements anything to worry about?
It would be good to have a list of common additives with a red/green/yellow categorization. With some stuff I really wonder why it's even in there (e.g. titanium dioxide), is it a ploy to get rid of industrial waste?
Perhaps it's better to buy supplements in powder form although with some things the dosing would be very tricky (e.g. Biotin or Molybdenum).
Maybe you could take on that project. Or search for books as someone may have done it already. Titanium dioxide is commonly used for coloring. Although I have read that it is poisonous. Really should not be used in anything that goes into or on a human body. I need more data on dosing molybdenum before I spend money I don't have on yet another supplement. Trying to keep it down to the essentials, 9 at present.
One might say the dose makes the poison, but there is no health benefit to having a capsule/pill be red (unless you're in the Matrix), so why ingest something that may be detrimental - especially considering that these things are tested in isolation, one has to take into account the total load of potential toxins.
I don’t think what he describes supports that interpretation at all.
What he said is
1) He repeatedly couldn’t lower his molybdenum dose until one day he could.
2) Fat soluble vitamins gave him mental fatigue that went away with boron.
3) Boron caused insomnia and this wasn’t fixed until he lowered the molybdenum.
I don’t see anything explaining his ability to lower the molybdenum other than the passage of time, and nothing at all indicating the boron helped him do it. Rather, lowering molybdenum helped him tolerate boron and boron helped him tolerate fat-soluble vitamins.
it is possible that you need high amounts to fill your stores as you were deficient for a year. it is also possible that something/lack of a nutrient is pushing your sulfite oxidase enzyme down.
i also want to attest to the fact that lowering sulfite pros drastically outweighs the cons of molybdenums supposed copper lowering capabilities and lowering sulfite should be prioritized as it has nasty cleaving effects on thiamine and on plummeting copper. i was worried about this as i have h2s sibo and take 100-150mcg daily of mozyme but i just focus on keeping sulfite down.
I agree with all of that, except that it can’t be low expression of SUOX as that would make molybdenum not work. Molybdenum can only activate a SUOX enzyme that is expressed.
sorry for responding late. i never actually got tested but i base my assumption on my symptoms and what foods i can cut out to help with aleviating my symptoms.
h2s gas is converted into sulfite with the help of coq10 and glutathione. after these steps theres sulfite in the body which you know is highly toxic in large quantities. you need molybdenum to activate the sulfite oxidase enzyme that converts sulfite to sulfate. your body can use the sulfate or excrete it.
chris has a good article on coq10 and sulfur toxicity that explains it all.
Love your work, Chris!! - but as a practicing DC your description makes me feel like you describe how you feel when people say "I took a B vitamin!" Specificity matters in movement just like nutrients.
Were you supplementing creatine when you were seeing the trainer, experiencing the tightness, etc? If the creatine supplementation is recent, that might play a big part in your new limberness.
High dose (15-30 grams/day) MSM per Dr Kathleen Janel’s protocol. Eliminated all my joint pain and SIBO symptoms. Highly recommended. https://gijanel.com
I had already been wondering if I have problems metabolizing sulfur, for many of the reasons mentioned in these articles. Would the ability to tolerate MSM mean that one is processing sulfur properly? On the other hand, if taking MSM improves joint pain - what does that indicate regarding one's metabolism? Since that much MSM is not natural, what imperfection is it compensating for? Like everyone else, just trying to understand what is happening.
Check out her site and book which is available on Amazon. Search for her interview with the SIBO doctor on Youtube and podcasts. She takes the same position as Dr Stephanie Seneff (also worth googling for her research and interviews) who believes that glyphosate impedes our ability to process sulfur. Many people become intolerant to sulfur because of leaky gut etc and then compound the problem by going on reduced sulfur diets. Sulfur deficiency leads to reduced healing because it makes up a significant portion of our body weight (7ish%?). All connective tissue including skin, joints, cartilage, digestive lining etc require sulfur in addition to the synthesis of glutathione. I don't want to write an article in the comments so suffice it to say that there is much more and CMJ can correct me where I'm being unclear or just plain wrong.
I have a long ways to go, but 2 things that have really helped me with muscle tension are working with my fascia. And realizing the tension started in my abdomen, and seems related to emotions esp. I hold my stress in my abdominal muscles. Tightness starts in my abdomen but when that can't hold any more, it radiates to other muscles.
What do you do for stomach muscle tension?
How do would you know you even have this?
Correct Toes have done a lot to get me into shape. It was rough as it required a paradigm change. If you’d told me before using Correct Toes that I’d be super active and sporty I would’ve been skeptical
A few very important facts about muscle tone (having studied it for 35 years).
1) The only reason a muscle fibre contracts is that it receives a message from a motor neuron.
2) Motor neurons have one output and 10000 pre-synaptic inputs.
3) Motor neurons fire at aproximately 50Hz at rest and 500Hz at full contraction. Outputs above or below normal levels cause tension or weakness respectively.
4) Many of those 10000 inputs do not come from the brain, they come from the muscle spindles of the agonist, synergist, antagonists, remote muscles and other proprioceptors to enable coordinated muscle response.
5) Muscle tone relies on sensory input, including the effects of the withdrawal reflex if it is stimulated (it's hard to impossible to walk normally with a pebble in your shoe).
6) Muscle tone isn't easy to measure and the causes of low or high tone are often hidden.
7) The myotatic reflex is a mechanism for maintaining proper muscle tone.
It's just important to point out that muscle tone is not necessarily a nutrition problem, although nutrition plays a part in all cell function, neurons also depend on appropriate sensory control.
I'm sorry I can't tell you what is causing your tight calves without examining you but most abnormal tone is usually caused by bad sensory input from foreign bodies which may be the metal neckchain you wear around your neck, which irritates the skin on the back of your neck, setting up a generalised withdrawal reflex and alterations of normal muscle tone.
You’re clearly very knowledgeable about this, but I think you’re ignoring a giant sphere of influence, which is that everyone’s muscle tone is multi-factorial for the exact reason you outlined — thousands of inputs — and while many of those are outside the brain many are inside the brain, and common sense can show you plenty of examples of people who are quite simply in a global sense more tense and less tense. Further, I just told you in this article that molybdenum created a global decline of excessive muscle tension, independent of any alignment or movement or postural issues.
Yes, control of muscle tone is complex and global muscle tone is likely nutritional/inflammatory, although some cases are spinal or nutritional. I look forward to experimenting with molybendum and catching up on your other suggestions. I'm a new masterpass member.
Ok awesome, I thought you were dismissing that.
Yes, Id be interested to know what you thought about the article on b6 toxicity! I myself tried b5 supplementation to increase CoA to bolster remyelinization (if I understand that correctly) and it seems to have banished numbness in my big toe that's been there for 5 years. I've stopped the b5 now but the numbness isn't returning...at least so far
Cutting out grains, legumes and yeasts has helped our muscle tension. My husband also has muscle tension a lot, like yours, from his ankles to his neck and yes working on his ankles and calves helps a lot, but lower back pain/tightness correlates with fatigue the most. Boswellia supplement and frankincense oil help temporarily, along with peppermint oil. We also saw benefits from glycine, but it is less effective now. Alcohol helps with relaxation and energy. I really wish I could find a high dose molybdenum supplement here in Canada to try, will keep looking.
I found that the Canadian Designs for Health has a Zinc+ supplement that includes a decent amount of Molybdenum. I think it does help with muscle tension but I am hoping to do another test soon.
I'm going to try this. Currently dealing with histamine intolerance due to a candida infection. From what I read, candida depletes Molybdenum. The first indications that i have a histamine overload are foot cramps, followed by cramps in the calf and then cramps in the shin. Magnesium, I take 450 mg a day, may be helping but it doesn't prevent this from happening. 1-2 grams of vitamin C over the course of the day will help the most. Thanks for the post!
Are you hypermobile? My experience with people who feel like their muscles are very "tight" (which can actually mean several things) and who also feel like they want to/ should be able to crack joints easily is that they are usually hypermobile. That can include hypermobility when younger even if age has stiffened the body so it no longer appears to be overly flexible. If so - that might mean your discoveries with molybdenum could be useful for others with hypermobility as this constant feeling of tightness (or for many, chronic pain) is one of the really debilitating aspects of that body type.
I’m definitely hypomobile, with no evidence of any type of hypermobility at all.
Jenny, thanks for your post. Do you have any more information on the connection between 'tight' muscles or joints and hypermobility? I have had both these traits as long as I can remember. Sounds like you have experience in this arena - is there anything else you have found to be of help in this type of case?
Would it be suitable enough to supplement 10mg of biotin once a week since biotin is stored in the liver instead of a lower 1.5 mg dose everyday of the week ? I am heterozygous for the D444H defect in the biotinadase enzyme which reduces enzyme activity to 52% and find it difficult to know what dose of biotin would work best for me. My 3-HIA is low at 1.49 ug/mgCR and biotin is low normal at 1.49 ug/mgCR aswell (both fasting).
Everything is better more spread out.
Did you find magnesium glycinate glycinate for the muscle tension? Are you sure muscle tension is the limiting factor as to whether or not your joints cavitate? There are a few other important factors such as passive ligamentous laxity. Also in case it's helpful to your reasoning, the relaxation in the surrounding muscles and increased mobility at a joint post cavitation is probably a neurological response more than a local tissue response.
Magnesium has a slight if any effect and I discussed glycine.
I don’t see how passive ligamentous laxity could change dramatically from a change in neurotransmitter concentration.
It’s difficult to prove the muscle tension, but it makes the most sense.
Sorry my comment wasn't well organized. I wasn't linking neurotransmitters and passive ligamentous laxity. I was only saying there are a number of factors which determine whether or not a joint cavitates readily. Muscle tension is just one.
The following two comments were just (potentially thought provoking) trivia.
Excessively stiff ligaments and joint capsules can make a joint more difficult to cavitate, as can excessively lax ligaments and joint capsules. Usually because they are cavitating spontaneously with movement in the latter case - and it takes about 20-30 minutes for the joint to be able to audibly cavitate again. As I recall the leading hypothesis was that this is the time it takes for the gasses to (re)dissolve in the synovial fluid. There are real training effects with regular cavitation of joints.
*did you find mg glycinate helpful
Incidentally I find nicotine use to increase my muscle tone/tension.. Not surprising given its an ACh agonist.
Yes that’s not surprising.
i realized i have this exact problem with my right foot/leg. the next day after i eat high sulfur foods(h2s sibo) it feels like my right leg is jello or like i forgot how to walk in that leg. its very strange and embarrasing. its like i have to conciously control how i walk and i never attributed it to sulfite/sulfocystiene. i noticed that during these wierd episodes i felt nervous and was always clenching my jaw to the point i got a headache which i now think is the glutamate agonistic effects of sulfocystiene.
this would make sense because h2s is inevitably metabolized into sulfite and if molybdenum cofactor is low then the next step in the pathway is converting the sulfite to sulfocystiene or thiosulfate.
so what i get from this is that anything that increases sulfite will inevitably deplete molybdenum with insufficient intake and cause these strange symptoms.
thanks for this article
I don’t think it’s depleting molybdenum it’s just that it’s raising sulfite and S-sulfocysteine if you don’t have enough. H2S is toxic itself in high amounts but I think the jaw clenching and nervousness indicates S-sulfocysteine
Timely article for me as I am looking to detox my chronic salicylate levels and most likely high sulphite levels with Moly Zyme. I am curious if you felt you needed to increase or supplement with copper with taking high dose molybdenum. And would that mean you would need to increase zinc then as well?
No it has had no effect on my copper status.
would inability to relax a muscle after exertion relate to muscle tension you are describing or is it a different kind of symptom? Like pulling your toes and foot getting sort of stuck in a cramp until I stretch it.
That sounds like a cramp.
I think that is just low magnesium. I think what cmj is describing is clenching (involuntarily)
Any worries about the additional ingredients in Mo-Zyme? Not sure if it's the same product but the version sold here contains Shellac. Are additives in some supplements anything to worry about?
Is it on the label? It’s not on my label. Where is “here”?
Are you getting yours on amazon? The amounts are all wonky
- This one (https://amzn.to/3KG4msO) says 15mcg on the title and 150mcg on the label image
- This one (https://amzn.to/3Vim2zS) says 5 *Milligram* on the title and 50mcg on the label image
When I look for Mo-Zyme in Germany, the US version is probably different.
Real shellac is made from bugs so it can be considered natural. :-)
Cyanide is also natural ;)
I know, as are many things. The trick is to know what is safe and what is not. No easy task sometimes!
It would be good to have a list of common additives with a red/green/yellow categorization. With some stuff I really wonder why it's even in there (e.g. titanium dioxide), is it a ploy to get rid of industrial waste?
Perhaps it's better to buy supplements in powder form although with some things the dosing would be very tricky (e.g. Biotin or Molybdenum).
Maybe you could take on that project. Or search for books as someone may have done it already. Titanium dioxide is commonly used for coloring. Although I have read that it is poisonous. Really should not be used in anything that goes into or on a human body. I need more data on dosing molybdenum before I spend money I don't have on yet another supplement. Trying to keep it down to the essentials, 9 at present.
One might say the dose makes the poison, but there is no health benefit to having a capsule/pill be red (unless you're in the Matrix), so why ingest something that may be detrimental - especially considering that these things are tested in isolation, one has to take into account the total load of potential toxins.
https://forums.phoenixrising.me/threads/boron-molybdenum-suox-and-sulfites-the-boron-fix-for-sulfites.39025/
this person was able to lower his moly dose from 1500 mcg to 50 mcg based on the theory that boron increases suox activity
I don’t think what he describes supports that interpretation at all.
What he said is
1) He repeatedly couldn’t lower his molybdenum dose until one day he could.
2) Fat soluble vitamins gave him mental fatigue that went away with boron.
3) Boron caused insomnia and this wasn’t fixed until he lowered the molybdenum.
I don’t see anything explaining his ability to lower the molybdenum other than the passage of time, and nothing at all indicating the boron helped him do it. Rather, lowering molybdenum helped him tolerate boron and boron helped him tolerate fat-soluble vitamins.
it is possible that you need high amounts to fill your stores as you were deficient for a year. it is also possible that something/lack of a nutrient is pushing your sulfite oxidase enzyme down.
i also want to attest to the fact that lowering sulfite pros drastically outweighs the cons of molybdenums supposed copper lowering capabilities and lowering sulfite should be prioritized as it has nasty cleaving effects on thiamine and on plummeting copper. i was worried about this as i have h2s sibo and take 100-150mcg daily of mozyme but i just focus on keeping sulfite down.
I agree with all of that, except that it can’t be low expression of SUOX as that would make molybdenum not work. Molybdenum can only activate a SUOX enzyme that is expressed.
i need to do more research. thanks
How did you figure out which type of sibo you have? and does Molybdenum help in this case because it affects hydrogen sulfide?
sorry for responding late. i never actually got tested but i base my assumption on my symptoms and what foods i can cut out to help with aleviating my symptoms.
h2s gas is converted into sulfite with the help of coq10 and glutathione. after these steps theres sulfite in the body which you know is highly toxic in large quantities. you need molybdenum to activate the sulfite oxidase enzyme that converts sulfite to sulfate. your body can use the sulfate or excrete it.
chris has a good article on coq10 and sulfur toxicity that explains it all.
Love your work, Chris!! - but as a practicing DC your description makes me feel like you describe how you feel when people say "I took a B vitamin!" Specificity matters in movement just like nutrients.
Were you supplementing creatine when you were seeing the trainer, experiencing the tightness, etc? If the creatine supplementation is recent, that might play a big part in your new limberness.