I have been saying this for years- and running Nutreval on all my patients- I have seen the trend too much- elevations in glyceric and glycolic- this is why the low ox diet is not working as much as you expected! Thank you for making this clear.
Yes!! Thank you for that! 5 years ago, so ill I could no longer work. Mostly Carnivore 4 1/2 yrs, better all the time and still learning what helps and what doesn't. Educating more on DNA polymorphisms.
Thank you so much Chris. You've been so helpful in understanding my oxalate situation and I am eager to perform the genetic testing soon.
I've tested high on a 24 hour oxalate test at Kaiser and 401.69 mmol/mol creatine on a glycolic acid Vibrant Wellness OAT. My citric acid cycle was tanked and I suffered from Candidiasis but this went away when I went carnivore and cut out fruits and vegetables. I've read that candida uses oxalate as a substrate to build biofilms. I have been dumping 3-5 times a day for the last year; It's sucked but I am finally feeling better.
Supplementing with sulfate and molybdenum has helped tremendously as oxalate displaces sulfate, and vice versa, via the SAT-1 transport protein in a concentration dependent manner.
Definitely going to reduce oxalates further and see if I find a difference and good to be motivated to avoid seed oils as part of the same effort. I've read Sally Norton but not really made a full scale effort so far.
This was super-helpful and very timely. I've seen a huge improvement in certain symptoms I *thought* were caused by oxalates after removing the major known sources of PUFAs from my diet.
Hi Allison, thanks for asking. The primary symptoms I've noticed being alleviated by removing as much PUFA as I can are: a distinct rash on my fingers and toes, and redness and swelling in my fingers and toes unrelated to the rash (most certainly histamine-related). I've had a very sudden increase in perimenopausal symptoms (weight gain, hot flashes, waking up at 4am, no libido, flat or irritable mood, all the fun).
Within 5 days of removing all nuts and seeds (in every form - oils, nut butters, flours, etc) the rash, swelling, and histamine symptoms on my fingers and toes began to abate. It's been 10 days and the rash is almost entirely gone. I've started waking up at between 5 - 6am (which might not sound like a lot, but it feels very different); my energy and stamina has increased; I've had almost no hot flashes in the last week and when I have they've been so mild I wasn't even sure it was a hot flash.
In addition to removing nuts/seeds, I've significantly limited things like chicken, turkey, and other protein sources that tend to have higher PUFA levels (I used to eat chicken every day, I'm limiting it to once or twice a week now). When I can source low-PUFA chicken and eggs I'll switch over to those. Hope that helps.
I ditched seed oils over a decade ago, yet my OAT shows urinary oxalic level beyond the upper limit at 72 mmol/mol creatine. I have high levels of B12 and biotin, and I have been supplementing B6 for 6+ months yet I am low in B6 and glutathione (which may be due to genetic predisposals). I’m currently looking into eliminating high oxalate foods from my diet, especially wild-gathered greens!
It seems to me that most Vitamin E products on the market are dosed substantially higher than your recommendation (not as insanely as most B-Vitamins, but still). What are the risk with too high Vitamin E?
I think I feel oxalates on my teeth when I eat spinach or chard ( but not chocolate or sweet potatoes which are also high in it). Does that happen to anyone else and does it mean anything?
Is a urine oxalate test reliable? does it correlate with tissue levels (which is where they become a problem, right?), or otherwise is there a good way of testing?
Rachel Arthur - a very highly respected nutritionist here in Australia has done quite a few excellent recordings about oxalate and is well known for deep research of the literature. She recommends 24hr urinary testing. I had mine done, it was off the charts high.
Chris as always I love your work. Please contact me. I have been trying to reconnect with you after a 2022 purchase of consulting package. I experienced serious delays, and we are finally in pre-launch stages for a system that among other things filters out oxalates, displays oxalates in recipes and tracks oxalates when our menu planning app is used. I wanted to consult with you pre-launch. But have found my old contacts for you no longer working. Please contact here https://primallynourished.com/contactUs and I will get back to you. ASAP.
We can't access a lot of the same testing - I'd say we can access around 70% of what you can get in the US. Some supplements are not available to us (though most are). We do our best!
I'm not sure that changes much as I don't think the value of Masterpass is primarily summed up by recommendations for specific American supplements and tests. I think the generalizable principles are the real value.
Oxalates are a hidden concern. It was not on my radar till about a month ago. I am implementing low low-oxalate diet transition. To my surprise urine therapy cleanses oxalates from the body because of the high ammonia uptake, both internally and externally.
The book "Your Own Perfect Medicine" describes cleansing oxalates without realizing it ( with urine therapy)
The book "The Golden Fountain" describes cleansing oxalates without realizing it ( with urine therapy).
Our bodies have a way of dealing with toxins, we just have to let them do it and stop compounding the problem.
Hey Chris, you mentioned copper ions in the article as part of the mechanism of lipid peroxidation. Does this mean that in those with high copper levels (as per a blood test for example) that they are at higher risk of oxalate overload (if the PUFA is high enough)?
I have been saying this for years- and running Nutreval on all my patients- I have seen the trend too much- elevations in glyceric and glycolic- this is why the low ox diet is not working as much as you expected! Thank you for making this clear.
Yes!! Thank you for that! 5 years ago, so ill I could no longer work. Mostly Carnivore 4 1/2 yrs, better all the time and still learning what helps and what doesn't. Educating more on DNA polymorphisms.
Being carnivor, you have to concious if what you are eating was eating. Lecting passes right through to chickens and their eggs.
Thank you so much Chris. You've been so helpful in understanding my oxalate situation and I am eager to perform the genetic testing soon.
I've tested high on a 24 hour oxalate test at Kaiser and 401.69 mmol/mol creatine on a glycolic acid Vibrant Wellness OAT. My citric acid cycle was tanked and I suffered from Candidiasis but this went away when I went carnivore and cut out fruits and vegetables. I've read that candida uses oxalate as a substrate to build biofilms. I have been dumping 3-5 times a day for the last year; It's sucked but I am finally feeling better.
Supplementing with sulfate and molybdenum has helped tremendously as oxalate displaces sulfate, and vice versa, via the SAT-1 transport protein in a concentration dependent manner.
Definitely going to reduce oxalates further and see if I find a difference and good to be motivated to avoid seed oils as part of the same effort. I've read Sally Norton but not really made a full scale effort so far.
This was super-helpful and very timely. I've seen a huge improvement in certain symptoms I *thought* were caused by oxalates after removing the major known sources of PUFAs from my diet.
can I ask what sort of symptoms? How strictly are you avoiding PUFAs and how long did it take to notice a benefit? thank you :)
Hi Allison, thanks for asking. The primary symptoms I've noticed being alleviated by removing as much PUFA as I can are: a distinct rash on my fingers and toes, and redness and swelling in my fingers and toes unrelated to the rash (most certainly histamine-related). I've had a very sudden increase in perimenopausal symptoms (weight gain, hot flashes, waking up at 4am, no libido, flat or irritable mood, all the fun).
Within 5 days of removing all nuts and seeds (in every form - oils, nut butters, flours, etc) the rash, swelling, and histamine symptoms on my fingers and toes began to abate. It's been 10 days and the rash is almost entirely gone. I've started waking up at between 5 - 6am (which might not sound like a lot, but it feels very different); my energy and stamina has increased; I've had almost no hot flashes in the last week and when I have they've been so mild I wasn't even sure it was a hot flash.
In addition to removing nuts/seeds, I've significantly limited things like chicken, turkey, and other protein sources that tend to have higher PUFA levels (I used to eat chicken every day, I'm limiting it to once or twice a week now). When I can source low-PUFA chicken and eggs I'll switch over to those. Hope that helps.
Thank you Chris for another brilliant article.
Great stuff
I ditched seed oils over a decade ago, yet my OAT shows urinary oxalic level beyond the upper limit at 72 mmol/mol creatine. I have high levels of B12 and biotin, and I have been supplementing B6 for 6+ months yet I am low in B6 and glutathione (which may be due to genetic predisposals). I’m currently looking into eliminating high oxalate foods from my diet, especially wild-gathered greens!
I'll be looking at your genome soon!
thanks!!
Read "Toxic Superfoods". It is complex how oxalates move in the body.
what's your calcium intake like?
1000-1600 mg per day from diet. I’m going to start supplementing to attain 2000mg.
Gerolsteiner water??
Yes I drink an entire 750ml bottle everyday. Sometimes as many as three bottles!
which type of calcium will you take?
MCHA since that is the best form available from Fullscript.
It seems to me that most Vitamin E products on the market are dosed substantially higher than your recommendation (not as insanely as most B-Vitamins, but still). What are the risk with too high Vitamin E?
aT drowning out gT, increased catabolism of all the other fat-soluble vitamins.
I think I feel oxalates on my teeth when I eat spinach or chard ( but not chocolate or sweet potatoes which are also high in it). Does that happen to anyone else and does it mean anything?
Your more conscious than most. That is a good thing.
Is a urine oxalate test reliable? does it correlate with tissue levels (which is where they become a problem, right?), or otherwise is there a good way of testing?
The only thing you can get is urine and blood. Norton has a critique of testing nuances in her book but I haven't done a deep dive into it.
Rachel Arthur - a very highly respected nutritionist here in Australia has done quite a few excellent recordings about oxalate and is well known for deep research of the literature. She recommends 24hr urinary testing. I had mine done, it was off the charts high.
Chris as always I love your work. Please contact me. I have been trying to reconnect with you after a 2022 purchase of consulting package. I experienced serious delays, and we are finally in pre-launch stages for a system that among other things filters out oxalates, displays oxalates in recipes and tracks oxalates when our menu planning app is used. I wanted to consult with you pre-launch. But have found my old contacts for you no longer working. Please contact here https://primallynourished.com/contactUs and I will get back to you. ASAP.
Would krill or black seed oil be a better choice than fish oil?
I wouldn't use fish oil for this purpose.
How I wish your recommendations worked for Australians! I’d upgrade in a heartbeat!
What is wrong with my recommendations in Australia?
We can't access a lot of the same testing - I'd say we can access around 70% of what you can get in the US. Some supplements are not available to us (though most are). We do our best!
I'm not sure that changes much as I don't think the value of Masterpass is primarily summed up by recommendations for specific American supplements and tests. I think the generalizable principles are the real value.
actually it's also the discounts - we can't access any of them as far as I'm aware. I still think the content is valuable!
That's fair, though most people who sign up don't even know about the discounts and do so for the content.
it's just a case of Aussie FOMO ;)
It’s because we can’t do your recommended tests here.
Certainly you can get almost all of the tests even if it's from different companies.
Oxalates are a hidden concern. It was not on my radar till about a month ago. I am implementing low low-oxalate diet transition. To my surprise urine therapy cleanses oxalates from the body because of the high ammonia uptake, both internally and externally.
The book "Your Own Perfect Medicine" describes cleansing oxalates without realizing it ( with urine therapy)
The book "The Golden Fountain" describes cleansing oxalates without realizing it ( with urine therapy).
Our bodies have a way of dealing with toxins, we just have to let them do it and stop compounding the problem.
Hey Chris, you mentioned copper ions in the article as part of the mechanism of lipid peroxidation. Does this mean that in those with high copper levels (as per a blood test for example) that they are at higher risk of oxalate overload (if the PUFA is high enough)?
It's about the free copper, not the total copper, but if you have high copper you are. more likely to have more free copper.